Debashish Banerji—Ancient Futures, Tech Solutions, Culture Wars, Chronic Pandemic, Poesis & more #9

Table of Contents

Episode Etymology

Anupaya: A no method, method to access our cosmic identity in the tradition of
Bhagavad Gita: Ancient Indian Scripture
Bindu : A vanishing point to higher dimensions, an enclosure
of nothingness or all pervasiveness
Brihadaranyaka upanishad one of the Ancient Indic scriptures 9-6 BCE
Darshana (six darshanas), perspective used instead of philosophy in sanskrit.
Foreknowledge: Precognition
Kashmir Shaivism: A monistic tradition originated after 850 CE.
Katha Upanishad: one of ancient Indic scriptures
Master signifier: a signifier (sign) that points to itself instead of other
Pancharatra Vaishnavism : Indian School of Philosophy 3 BCE
Pharmakon: is a composite of three meanings: remedy, poison, and scapegoat.
Poesis: poetry, intensity of energy that takes us beyond ourselves
Purusa: The eternal soul or sel in Indian Philosophy
Renaissance era : 15th CE Linear perspective in art was developed
Samkhya: Dualistic school of indian philosophy
Shatapatha Brahmana: A commentary on the vedic text Yajurveda.
Shraddha Shradda; Sanskrit: श्राद्ध: : Faith devoid of belief , intuition
Six Darshanas: Six schools of ancient Indian philosophy
Sri Aurobindo: Indian Philosopher, poet & reformer (1870-1950)
Techne: root “Teks-” meaning “to weave” , a technique
Underbelly: a hidden unplesant part of society.
Vishvarupa Darshan: Lord Krishna shows his cosmic view to Arjuna
Ya evam veda: “who knows thus”
Yantra: Machine , could be a subjective machine.
Will to power: Desire to have power over others
Will to self exceeding: Desire to be become a better version of yourself through a creative process.

**Philosophers mentioned**
Michael Focault
Bernard Stiegler
Jacques Derrida


In this episode, we continue our conversation from a previous episode where we looked at what defines technology and what are some of the hidden historical, cultural, and philosophical movements that have shaped our understanding of technology and how we build it. See, it’s very important to understand these aspects because otherwise we keep building technologies that although are very powerful yet continue to harm our very well. If the last episode was about how to define technology in some of the darker, hidden aspects of technology. Then this episode is very much about the solutions. We look at new ways of how to develop technologies. We also look at ancient civilizations who develop technology with radically different intentions. And we also look at how to turn technology development into a creative process. And many other interesting topics.

Previous episode

Debashish Banerji—What’s Technology? Singularity, Non duality, Tantric Tech, UFOs & Future Self’s #7

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Guest Biography

Our guest is the phenomenal philosopher and thinker, Dr. Debashish Banerjii, who is currently the Haridas Chowdry Professor at the East West Psychology department at the California Institute of Integral Studies. He’s also the author of several books and one of his recent books is the Seven Quartets of becoming a transformative yoga psychology based on the diaries of Sri Aurobindo.

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Full Transcript

[00:00:00] Kenan: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of potential paradigms. In this episode, we continue our conversation from a previous episode where we looked at what defines technology and what are some of the hidden historical, cultural, and philosophical movements that have shaped our understanding of technology and how we build it.

[00:00:20] Kenan: See, it’s very important to understand these aspects because otherwise we keep building technologies that although are very powerful yet continue to harm our very well. If the last episode was about how to define technology in some of the darker, hidden aspects of technology. Then this episode is very much about the solutions.

[00:00:35] Kenan: We look at new ways of how to develop technologies. We also look at ancient civilizations who develop technology with radically different intentions. And we also look at how to turn technology development into a creative process. And many other interesting topics.

[00:00:50] Kenan: Our guest is the phenomenal philosopher and thinker, Dr. Debashish Banerjii, who is currently the hu do cology professor at the east west psychology department at California Institute of integral studies.

[00:01:00] intro2: He’s also the author of several books and one of his recent books is the seven QUT of becoming a transformative yoga psychology.

[00:01:06] intro2: Based on the diaries of three Arab menu.

[00:01:09] Kenan: If you’re watching this video on YouTube and would like to check out the last episode, there should be a hot link on the top right side of the screen right now.

[00:01:16] Kenan: Before we turn to this illuminating conversation, I would like to make a few quick announcements.

[00:01:20] Kenan: Each of the episodes has a full transcript that is in the description and you can check it out there. We’re now also introducing a glossary or etymology list for some of the important concepts and words used in each episode.

[00:01:32] Kenan: So if you like and go to the description, you’ll find the link there. Lastly, we’re a small team at potential paradigms, and we make these videos because we’re really passionate about these subjects. If you have enjoyed and liked or reviews, then please share them with your friends.

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[00:02:09] Kenan: So ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of potential paradigms today. We’ll be continuing our discussion from a previous episode on the topic of technology. Last time we looked at what defines technology and the various historical movements and philosophical movements that have shaped our current understanding of technology and how we build it.

[00:02:26] Kenan: Technology holds tremendous promise, but it ha also has some negative sides. So without further ado, let’s, join again. Dr. Ish energy. Dr. Ish energy is the childhood professor and the chair of the east west department of psychology at the California Institute of integral studies. So welcome. DSH.

[00:02:48] Debashish: you. Canan.

[00:02:49] Kenan: Thank you for being here.

[00:02:50] Technology as Phramacology : The Posion & the cure

[00:02:50] Kenan: So last time when we were talking, we, we looked at the limits of rationality and how that’s connected to various historical and philosophical movements. And rationality has this sense, an exaggerated sense in our civilization at the moment. And so we’re looking at that and how that ties to the way we look at technology and how we build technology.

[00:03:11] Kenan: and so we also wanted to explore what are the positive, aspects of technology. So technology seems to have this paradoxical position of both, the poison and the cure for the trouble time that we find ourselves in. And in that context you had used this word, pharmacon uh, which originally was coined by plateau and as a connection with, the pharmacy.

[00:03:33] Kenan: So maybe we, you can take us into that and, we can explore if there is a way to. Resolve this paradoxical quality of te.

[00:03:42] Debashish: Sure. Thank you, Kenan. Yeah, indeed. We touched on some of this last time and, we can elaborate on some of these themes. we were discussing last time about, how technology is a pharmacology, you know, and, uh, some contemporary philosophers, like Jacques Derrida or Bernard Stigler have talked about it in those terms.

[00:04:05] Debashish: when we use the term pharmacology for technology, they’re referring to the fact that technology, as we understand it is, an attempt to piece together the world as specialized objects. So there is the separation of the subject and the object. There is the sense that the reason of the human being is a kind of a, faculty, the faculty of God, with which a kind of a rational world has been created a world with reason, a world with logic inside it, you know, so that if we use our mind, we can piece together this understanding and make a, even better world than what have, what, what we’ve been given.

[00:04:56] Debashish: And that’s part of the drive of modernity. And that’s, what’s brought us to our times where as we were discussing last time, it’s a moment from a certain viewpoint of triumph. we understand the laws of, many things and we actually. Have a sense of, almost of, omnipresence across the world, omniscience and Omnipotance, of a certain kind of a technological kind, but we are also at the same time facing a tremendous crisis in our world.

[00:05:31] Debashish: So it’s this kind of talk about the cure and the, poison we are experiencing it firsthand. We’re experiencing the fact that all our tinkering with, with the earth, has caused severe ruptures in the climate. the geological system is reacting and is throwing us almost to the edge of extinction.

[00:05:54] Culture wars: Narrative of technological triumph vs threat of extinction

[00:05:54] Debashish: our understanding of economics, our understanding of politics, our understanding of the word market and creating a certain kind of a human, a rational human that will span the world and derive benefit from it, is backfiring because there are many ethnicities, many cultures that don’t buy into this narrative, religion that feel that they’ve been, suppressed and that, that are reacting in aggressive ways.

[00:06:29] Debashish: there is the entire underbelly of human existence, which is all about. Life and its urges a certain kind of fantasy life, which doesn’t, uh, really buy into its subordination by the mind, and which is erupting in all kinds of, neurosis and psychosis around us. So we see the poison, which is spewing all over in our times more than ever before, across the world.

[00:07:03] Debashish: And at the same time we see this, , hour, of the unification of the world, the sense that we actually have, all the opportunities of our time, universalized across the globe. So this is in a way the pharmacology that we are seeing. technology has led us to it’s the effect of the pharmacology.

[00:07:25] Debashish: That technology is, I’d say the narrative of triumph, is in a sense, a dangerous narrative because it hides the fact, it creates a certain kind of a elusory bubble that hides the fact that we are in a very grave crisis right now. we live in a dystopian time. We are trying to patch back all the cracks that are appearing.

[00:07:54] Debashish: One after the other,

[00:07:56] Age of Chronic Pandemic and Liberal vs Dictatorial politics

[00:07:56] Debashish: we had a two year pandemic, we are still trying to patch it up. we haven’t really succeeded. we will enter into a phase of chronic pandemic. It’s going to be something which we live with from now. and at the same time you have entered into something which is almost like a third world war, a, a situation where the power lines, the power politics of the world have ruptured in a sense and, are in a state of conflict.

[00:08:34] Debashish: so these kind of things, and then at the very political level inside each nation, you, we see this kind of, conflict between, the, the polarization of politics. See, authoritarian and, you know, kind of dictatorial rulers on the one hand and it drive towards liberal politics on the other.

[00:09:04] Debashish: This is, happening across the word. It’s a situation that’s almost going out of hand. Uh, we don’t have really good solutions to, so this is in a sense, an understanding of the pharmacology of technology that has led us to this point. Now you are asking about what’s the good, and what’s the bad, what we call the good of technology, which is the kind of better, more convenient life that it has brought us, um, comes with the, with the price tag, it’s the price tag of all these things that I’ve said.

[00:09:42] Debashish: It’s also the price tag of a kind of dulling. Of life, a sense of comfort.

[00:09:51] 1960’s Counter culture movement & our technological domestication

[00:09:51] Debashish: You know, I mean, if you think about the 1960s, when, the United States, staged a culture counterculture and, counterculture, that was strong enough to really bring about political changes, stop a war, create a different sense of life, a sense of possibilities and of utopian, futures.

[00:10:19] Debashish: we don’t see that in the same way to date. And one of the reasons is. The underlying sense of comfort that we’ve developed due to the conveniences and this triumphalist narrative of technology, prevents us from really taking seriously the kind of serious, the danger that, that we are faced with right now.

[00:10:46] Debashish: See, we also see the amount of polarization that has taken place, , across the world, in the, in the United States and across the world. this polarization also figures, it’s part of the effect of this, uh, pharmacology and it figures in our inability to band together to bring about changes that actually are beneficial for humankind though.

[00:11:12] Debashish: Many understand it. See, we can’t take that step because in a sense, we don’t have the will. Our will has been. Crushed has been dulled, and has lost its vigor. See, so all this, goes to tell you that even what we call the benefits of technology are to a large extent, living with the price tag, which, we, hide from ourselves and which is hidden from us.

[00:11:48] Debashish: And we also hide it from ourselves. Now, where is the other side of technology? Why is it a pharma? What is the good of technology? Well, there is the good of technology.

[00:12:00] Faulty premise of technology: Rational understanding of the world

[00:12:00] Debashish: The good of technology is the fact that if we didn’t let technology shape us into the kind of subject that capital wants to make of us.

[00:12:14] Debashish: See, this is all that I’m talking about is coming largely due to the reaction of our inability to really understand the world in a piecemeal fashion, we cannot do that using the mind. So a technological premise is faulty in that sense, but it’s also arising because we have created a certain kind of a system that is turning against us.

[00:12:45] Debashish: You see, it’s turning against us because it’s, it’s, it’s a very powerful system. This relates to what you were calling singularity, et cetera. It’s a certain faculty of the human, the rational faculty. That’s been fine tuned to its maximum and exteriorized and universalized. So this universal machine of the mind, rationality and memory, and, computational ability, exteriorized is being utilized by a master signifier.

[00:13:19] Debashish: What is the master? There’s always the attempt of a social master signifier catching hold of the, Springs of technology. You see, and I’ll come in a moment to how technology is not just a material machine. Technology is a, is subjective way of being before it becomes a material machine, you know, so, but whatever it is, this subjective, way of being, this method.

[00:13:49] Debashish: and its material manifestation are always, you know, under the will to power. There’s some will to power that wants to hold it. And this will to power, wants to be a master signifier, something which is going to be the will to power over everything. OK. So it could either be some kind of, war lord or despot of some sort, or it could be capital.

[00:14:22] Debashish: So this, these are the two major, master signifier of our time and they are converging. So this ubiquitous control of human beings by the technologies of capital. You know, how do we make people want things? We, we fine tune the technology of making people want so that they buy, you know, they buy into and they buy and they produce what it is that is necessary to buy.

[00:14:57] Debashish: And the, the value of this, you know, not the used value, but the value, the added value, the profit value of this is what is whisked by that person or those persons who hold the levers of this machine. You see? So this is where the master signifier is controlling our subjectivity and making us into subjects of a certain kind.

[00:15:27] Shifting Technology from Will to Power to Will to Self-Exceeding

[00:15:27] Debashish: Right on the other hand. So that is the, the poison. But on the other hand, if we become conscious of that, then we have the possibility of turning the lever around of deciding for ourselves, to what extent we will engage, what do we want, uh, what are, what are our wants, you know, and what do I need to do to derive what I want see, so that changes and their technology can be a, you know, a positive force, you know, I mean, you and I’m today.

[00:16:11] Debashish: It’s possible for somebody even without going to school to actually use the resources of the internet, to get themselves a perfect education. It’s possible for somebody without very much money or, you know, even using free and public resources to have access to that kind of, uh, possibility of education.

[00:16:37] Debashish: See, but they need to want to do it long before they want to do it. They’re told what they will become, what they can become. So the images with which we develop are subjectivity. You know, what we are made into subjects, um, often determine before we decide what we want to become, uh, what our future is going to be.

[00:17:08] Debashish: See. So here we come to the notion of what it is that we can become so that we regain our sense of. Being who we are as well as we put technology to the use that it’s supposed to be put. And that is again, a kind of a retrieval of the notion of the will to power the will to power is not a will to power over others.

[00:17:37] Debashish: It’s not a will to power, um, in, in, in getting more and more, it’s a will to self exceeding, see it’s a will to become the fullness of who we are a will to being and a will to becoming not a will to having and a will to subjugating or, or pressing you see. So if we make that reversal, then technology becomes something new technology, even as it exists, becomes something.

[00:18:17] Technology as a way to relate with the past & past lineages of becoming

[00:18:17] Debashish: With which we fulfill, uh, that drive inside us. Technology also becomes something which allows us to form a sense of connection with the past. See, because now that is another function of technology. In our times, technology is archiving things. This is one entire type of technologies is what are called memo technologies, technologies of memory.

[00:18:48] Debashish: You know, we are archiving even here as you and I are talking. We are recording this conversation. This conversation will remain somewhere, from the BI beginning. I mean, technology as a recording and memory technology begins from the moment we begin to write. There’s a whole period of time where we refuse to write.

[00:19:10] Debashish: We, , we remember by orality, but that’s also memory and it’s also a technology. This is where I was saying technology is not just the material product that we call technology or machines. Machines are subjective machines before they’re objective machines. We develop technologies of remembering, you know, even the people who passed down the Vedas did so by very clever technologies of how to remember things and, uh, repeat things so that they were passed down in time.

[00:19:49] Debashish: And then we take that one step further and universalize it further by making it material. We develop writing. And then we improve that technology to new technologies that are more enduring and more perfect that don’t, that stay for much longer and that don’t distort what is being recorded. So in a way, even at this time, when we, in our sense of re relationship with time have been completely flattened, because technology has turned us into a kind of a assembly line cog right.

[00:20:35] Debashish: In its productivity. And consumptively right. even in this kind of a time, in a way in that flattened space, we are surrounded by objects that hold memory we can. Click a button and be connected to the past. We can retain or regain our relationship with the past. And we can build these lineages that are not just ours, the lineages of the earth, to the aspiration, to its own self, exceeding the entire, um, you know, sort of various lineages of becoming

[00:21:25] Debashish: that we, that we can be a part of and whose energy can, imbue us with the power that our will has lost. See, so there is another way of understanding technology and the good that can come of technology.

[00:21:40] Technology as a subjective process before exteriorization

[00:21:40] Debashish: A third way of understanding technology and the good that can come of it is in the fact that as I said, technology is not just exteriorized technology.

[00:21:53] Debashish: Technology is internal technology before it is external technology, even in becoming external technology that controls us, there is an entire technology, and we discussed this last time about Michelle. Fuco talking about four kinds of technology, technology of production, technology of signs, technology of power and technologies of the self

[00:22:22] Debashish: technology of signs. It’s we develop a certain kind. Conventional system for controlling our environment that we make people agree. This is the whole thing about becoming a acculturated. You understand the signs of your culture. You, they become second nature to you. They become your culture. You know, this is the technology.

[00:22:58] Debashish: It’s the technology of signs. These signs then become materialized around you and you use the objects of the world. According to the technology of science that has already informed the technologies of production and use and consumption. You see, so in a similar way, these internal technologies, subjective technologies can also be modified to suit our will to self exceeding.

[00:23:34] Debashish: So these are ways by which technology. So they, here we come to the ancient ideas of technology, you know, technologies of the self, you know, or Techne as we discussed last time. And it’s relationship with poesis. You see, so this is what is the redemption of technology, you know, rather than wishing it a way. Um, you know, so even an, an, an external technol use of technology from inside out, we are today.

[00:24:08] Debashish: We have to do it from outside in. We have to reclaim technology from outside in and, and also operated simultaneously from inside and out.

[00:24:20] Debashish: So some of these philosophers, like Stigler, I was talking about who has coin the term pharmacology is talking about this other way of using technology as an, as a kind of a, uh, organicology you know, like, uh, so, uh, a new way of looking at our organs, because in a sense that’s what it is. What is internet, it’s like a universal mind that has been materialized.

[00:24:52] Debashish: It’s an externalization of the human mind in a sense, or at least the memory. Um, so we can think about. Now that not as a, an exteriorized mind that comes back and gives us the illusion of power, but actually controls us. We were talking about profiling last time, how we are cons. We are looking at something that’s looking back at us because every movement we make on it is being recorded.

[00:25:25] Debashish: And out of these recordings come algorithms that are profiling you and making you into a variety of, uh, beings that consume a variety of things. So there are images that are being thrust on you, and those parts of you that respond to that are coming to the front in responding to that and shaping you as a subject, you are becoming that, that consumer or that set of consumers.

[00:25:58] Debashish: See? So in that sense, It is. And it’s like a cancer. If you, if you think of it as anology right, as anology, it’s an organ, a runaway organ, an organ that’s satisfying itself at your cost. You know, on the other hand, if we were to actually expand in our consciousness in our self exceeding to a will to self exceeding, our use of technology is an extension of our organs.

[00:26:37] Debashish: It is anology that, uh, act is in a sense moving towards a universal sense of being.

[00:26:47] Debashish: So these are some of the ways in which I’d say, uh, you know, the, the pharmacology or the pharmacy of the technology, uh, can be looked at. Yes.

[00:26:59] Kenan: Yes. Brilliant. Thank you. Um, so many deep teams here. So some of the things that I, um, that were highlighted by you, I feel like one is this actually an oring team seems like this will of self exceeding, but currently we we’ve, it seems like all those frameworks that you’ve mentioned, the current paradigm we live in has, is not honoring.

[00:27:25] Kenan: Will of self exceeding it’s the will to power, power over others. And at the end, as you were highlighting in the last conversation, the individual itself has become a resource.

[00:27:39] audioDebashish32924695289: Yeah,

[00:27:40] The co-opting of the Technologies of the Self

[00:27:40] audioKenan42924695289: and as you were just mentioning that, the creation of technology is often not driven so much by creativity or something, an act of becoming which is unknown, but it’s already, the parameters has been provided by the culture, by the civilization of this, mass consumption. you shared a lot of gems, so I was just trying. Trying to throw them back at you and see if I missed something. One of them is, this turning, you were saying that we were taking mostly from the outside and we’re ignoring the subjectivity and the technologies we have on the inside as well. And seeing that, how they’re informing the creation of technology. So talking in those terms, maybe we, we could take it in, in, in many directions, but one of the things is, just mentioned that, the ancient civilization and the times of the way does in which this subjectivity was, was honored. And also there was a process of technology archival in their times as well.

[00:28:51] audioKenan42924695289: can we learn from some of these. ancient civilizations in the way that they were looking at technology and using it, cuz one of the things that really caught my attention that you said was that this technology archival process, is allowing us every child that’s born in this civilization, that we have this huge archives and connecting them with the wills of self exceeding of other potentials, uh, of other civilizations.

[00:29:20] audioKenan42924695289: And, I was wondering if, if you had any thoughts of that

[00:29:22] audioDebashish32924695289: sure cannot. I think, you know, I mean, in thinking about this, I mean, it’s, it’s such a, a, a word in which everything in a sense is being co-opted. so even what you’re talking about, what we talked about regarding technologies of the self, you’re talking about ancient technologies, subjective technologies, they’re all in the process of being co-opted, because you now have yoga for example, which has become universalized as a term anywhere, but it has its single meaning right now, if you ask anybody, what is yoga, what they mean by it is something that serves the fitness industry. It, helps you keep healthy, but it’s capitalized. It’s, it’s part of a very lucrative, fitness industry right now. and it’s other meanings it’s meanings that serve the will to self exceeding are lost. You know, at the most it becomes. Meditation for stress free, corporate life, or you have more exotic kinds of, you know, understandings of yoga, like Yoga Nidra, you know, which is again, how do we come to deep rest, which will rejuvenate us for being more productive in this corporate world, right?

[00:30:50] audioDebashish32924695289: Or you have the sense that our sensations are completely jaded. We don’t have, enough intensity in our lives. So let’s practice the yoga of sexual ecsta. which is come through. Yeah. And then, you know, you also have this other entire subjective, set of, you know, parallel strand that works with this.

[00:31:16] audioDebashish32924695289: Like, let’s pop a tab and we’ll know the one we’ll know we’ll have non-duality in, an instant or something like that. all, these are in a way, the methodologies of, technology as we have built it at at this time, you know?

[00:31:34] What’s Self-Exceeding, Technology, Techne & Poesis?

[00:31:34] audioDebashish32924695289: So, on the other hand, we were talking about the will to self exceeding, and even, you know, a term like the will to self exceeding can actually be misunderstood because, it has led to things like the human potential movement.

[00:31:50] audioDebashish32924695289: It sounds good, but at the same time, it’s also in a sense, empowering. you know, need of wanting, I mean, self exceeding becomes its own kind of wanting, so even these terms, I think it’s important for us. And if you’re going to look back at the past to first understand the present and what is its relationship with this past, because our gains is already poison, you know, our understanding of the past is already a co-option it’s.

[00:32:20] audioDebashish32924695289: We are not allowed to look at the past as it was. So to see. Right. So, you know, I mean, we also talked about, these terms, like techne and poesis last time, how do we understand this will to self exceeding? I feel that it’s important to first get a sense of that. And what does it mean in our times before we, look at what we can make of the technologies of the past.

[00:32:50] audioDebashish32924695289: Right? So, I’d say if we are thinking about, techne and poesis and the relationship between the two, we were talking about Heidegger and his famous essay on technology, right. we find that, poesis, what is poesis? poesis is related to poet. Poises is creativity. out of it’s like. Generation, you know, making make in that sense self exceeding in the sense that, as he’s developing the idea of poesis from ancient Greek thought, what he’s saying is that poesis is, is ecstasis.

[00:33:36] audioDebashish32924695289: In other words, ecstasy in the sense of a, kind of a, intensity of energy that takes us beyond ourselves, and this is a self exceeding and energy concentration and a intensity and increase in the intensity that pushes us beyond ourselves. It’s like, in that sense, like a quantum jump, you know, and for that, what is really happening is that if you think of, you know, I mean, he gives examples, from nature.

[00:34:12] audioDebashish32924695289: Okay. But if you think about like the metamorphosis of the, of the cocoon into the butterfly, right? it’s, it’s a kind of a moment of gathering and externalizing as something new, bringing the new to birth, but the new is not brought into birth from something outside it’s from within that it it’s born.

[00:34:39] audioDebashish32924695289: So it’s a self exceeding in that sense, you know, it comes from one self, but what is that self out of which it comes that self is a gathering. So when we, when we are talking about, certain kind of inner one may call it an inner ecosystem, we are not just. It kind of a resource made up of a certain set of properties of doing right.

[00:35:05] audioDebashish32924695289: We are the cosmos each one of us is the entire cosmos and the becoming of the cosmos is sticking place inside us. So if we were to come into contact with that, if we were to come into contact with the microcosm that the cosmos has become in mean, right. And if I can gather that if I can concentrate that in myself, the creative power of becoming in it will produce me as the self exceeding of myself, not as a kind of a separated being, but as the Cosmo itself in a unique form, This is why it’s poesis poet poetry.

[00:36:00] Poetry as a cosmic process

[00:36:00] audioDebashish32924695289: In that sense is always a instance of something cosmic.

[00:36:07] audioDebashish32924695289: When somebody writes poetry, they may be writing about a certain theme, but there is a gathering that of, of many cosmic elements that takes place at that point and the power of a poetry lies and the, of a poem lies. And the fact that as you are reading it, you feel that expansion, you feel the language being able to open up a Cosmo for you

[00:36:31] audioDebashish32924695289: that came because in its inception in its poesis, it’s this cosmos that gathered itself and came to a threshold point of intensity. And became something material.

[00:36:51] audioDebashish32924695289: This process, this act, this, you know, becoming, you know, form, is accompanied by a certain configuration of forces that can be called techne. It’s a technique that you followed and a technique that made you see you there. Again, we come to subjective, techno, a good poet creates their own techniques.

[00:37:19] audioDebashish32924695289: So that, that, that’s what you actually sense. When you do say literary criticism, looking at a poem from the inside, you see how the syntax and the semantics are related. according to a certain technology, See, this is tech. So this kind of Techna is also the subjective technology of self exceeding, seen as a Cosmo.

[00:37:48] Self Exceeding as Cosmogenesis

[00:37:48] audioDebashish32924695289: Jenesis self exceeding is not just, you know, individualistic, you know, human potential from the point of view of a kind of a ego drive to becoming, which is a kind of having, becoming at the service of having that’s very easy to, you know, do in our time mistake in our times, because that’s what we are being told all the time. That that’s what we are here.

[00:38:21] Exploring Ancient Civilizations without commoditizing them

[00:38:21] audioKenan42924695289: Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Thank you so much for, uh, for clarifying. I think that this is indeed very important. because as you were, as you were saying, we, when I started to talk about the ancient civilization and you. Correctly highlighted the fact that in our society, we have taken all of that and we have commoditized again, the same force, the will to power has co-opted, the will to self exceed in even in the ancient times and reformulated it.

[00:38:48] audioKenan42924695289: And again, we think we’re self exceeding, but we might actually not be doing that. And, this is a word that’s good for me to clarify where you’ve differentiated becoming from having. And, uh, I think it’s a very, sometimes can be very subtle, but it’s a good difference to identify. So let me ask you this.

[00:39:05] audioKenan42924695289: If, if we had the correct definition of self exceeding, which, is a lot of work in itself, I think it’s a work of self transformation within us to, to, to discriminate what self exceeding really is. But if, if we were, if one was clear about that, then if we were to look at some of these, Civilizations, and the, the technologies that they have produced, could you say something about how we could benefit from them look at them?

[00:39:38] Confession as a Subjective Technology: Michael Focault

[00:39:38] audioDebashish32924695289: Yes. Yes. Keenan. So, in technologies of, the self, right. And when we are talking about technologies of the self, we are, assuming and when see, this is a term that Fuko uses, when he’s talking about the ancient Greek world and the ancient Christian world. And he’s talking about the fact that before say the technologies of confession, right?

[00:40:09] audioDebashish32924695289: Which isn’t, again, a subjective technology of social control right before that happens. there’s a inflection point before that. We have technologies of confessing through ourselves. In other words, what you call truth telling. So truth telling can have two kinds of meanings, truth telling can mean, telling oneself the truth about oneself sincerity, you know, because I have a certain goal in mind, I have to view myself dispassionately, this self, accountability, not from a, , the viewpoint of some external authority, but from the viewpoint of what I want to become, So that, that becomes a certain kind of, truth telling as a technology of the self that Fuko is talking about.

[00:41:03] Technology from higher states of consciousness – Poesis, Poetry

[00:41:03] audioDebashish32924695289: Another kind of technology of the, of truth telling is. That if I’m in a state of consciousness, how do I tell truth about it? In other words, not tell truth as truth being separated from what is being told, but how does truth tell itself?

[00:41:26] audioDebashish32924695289: Again, we come to poesis. poesis is that poesis is the coming into matter. The coming into expression of truth. This is the difference between if I were to describe an experience to you. And if the experience embodies itself forth to you in language, this is actually also what makes the distinction between a guru.

[00:41:51] audioDebashish32924695289: who has had an experience is writing from that experience and a scholar that is writing about somebody else’s experience. You see, so this is, this is the kind of truth and transmission of experience, happens through that kind of process, subjective technology again. So it becomes technology that is a certain kind of, method, but a method that is ultimately mysterious.

[00:42:22] audioDebashish32924695289:it’s a method up to a certain point. And beyond that point, it’s a method that’s utilized by the forces of creativity that are part of another, of a self exceeding part of another state of consciousness.

[00:42:42] Kenan: Yes as

[00:42:43] Technology of Intuition or Faith श्राद्ध and its place technology development

[00:42:43] audioKenan42924695289: you were saying that earlier, one thing that was coming to me is that one has to look at technology itself as, um, as a process of art as an artist. Process cuz oftentimes we have this bifurcation of, considering it like an engineering problem where it’s, again, rationality is, everything is, you know, is limited to logic.

[00:43:06] audioKenan42924695289: And so you are, you’re kind of freeing that into maybe logic has a place in there, but it’s very artistic process. And it seems like that the, the process is one of discovery and is a lot of, would you say that trust has to be an element in this, mode of becoming of technology?

[00:43:23] audioDebashish32924695289: absolutely. Absolutely. You know, they, they use the term Shraddha in sanskrit. Which, uh, sometimes is translated as, as faith. But it is in faith as it’s understood in the Western. I mean the whole notion of a belief system is not present in it. Faith is this intuition of something that is guiding us like the creative process from within that we trust in and, and know at a certain is because it’s transpersonal.

[00:43:55] audioDebashish32924695289: We know it, even when we don’t know it, you know, there’s something inside us that knows and something in, in us that follows because it knows blindly sometimes that it follows.

[00:44:08] Ancient Indic Yogas as a manifold of technologies of the self

[00:44:08] audioDebashish32924695289: But, coming back to this notion of, the technologies of the self and, and, you know, the ancient methods, right? How do, say if we were to look at India and I I’d say, coming back to this idea of yoga and its cooptation, yoga is.

[00:44:33] audioDebashish32924695289: Very, I mean, large largely used, I mean, a very, prolific word in Indian cultural history, you know, civilizational history and it can’t be reduced to any one single thing. There’s so many yogas and yoga itself means so many things, even in the earliest users of the word yoga and here, if you come ask people, what is yoga first, they’ll tell you about the physical practice.

[00:45:07] audioDebashish32924695289: Then they might go to the yoga Sutra as a canonical text of yoga. Right? So that, that also, they’re not wrong because in a way in India, You have the six Darshanas and yoga’s called a dharshana and, and that yoga that is called a Dhana is coexisting within innumerable other things that are calling themselves yoga, right?

[00:45:32] audioDebashish32924695289: The Gita calls itself, a yoga from beginning to end. Every chapter is a yoga, and yet it feels the dialogue of Samkhya and yoga inside itself. You know, so it’s, it’s like this and then earliest users of the word yoga come in the open initial, like the Katha Upanishad open and already there are a variety of inflections to what it may mean.

[00:45:57] audioDebashish32924695289: You know? So I’d say this word, yoga is very interesting. I’d say it is the plural field of the technologies of the self. This is the yo this is the meaning of yoga. Yoga literally means to add to unite. And so. Technologies of the self as technologies of the ecosystemic self, you know, technologies. I mean, even the term eco and ecotechnology eco has come to me in the earth, but eco literally means home it’s the world and anything larger than oneself that is one’s home.

[00:46:46] audioDebashish32924695289: You know, so arriving at this larger sense of home, the world sense, the cosmic sense, or it could be just a natural sense, a sense, which is somehow greater than what we take ourselves to be, coming into union with that, whatever it is is, is self exceeding and that. There are technologies for doing that.

[00:47:16] Yogas of Becoming: Description & methods for psyche and cosmos

[00:47:16] audioDebashish32924695289: These, these technologies of the self of producing the self as a larger being form, the field that we call yoga, you know, so this is why I think, you know, all the various yoga will, you, you can look at it as two sections. One is descriptions of the psyche, what is the topography and what is the cosm of the psyche?

[00:47:45] audioDebashish32924695289: Because the psyche is not restricted to how you understand your subjective self. Ultimately that seeps in two and becomes one with the cosmic self ranges of cosmic consciousness, right? So this related. Macrocosm and microcosm reality, union yoga, of a psych or a kind of topography of esoteric, sense of being and a cosm of the sense of the cosmos.

[00:48:21] audioDebashish32924695289: That is one part of yoga. And the other part of yoga is methods. So you have descriptions and methods. These descriptions, uh, are, they’re not descriptions that are, uh, absolute, you know, there are people who tell you, oh, I went to study yoga psychology, and they told me that, the description of the human subject or the psyche is made up of these chakras seven chakras.

[00:48:55] audioDebashish32924695289: It’s made up of, you know, the purusa and the prakriti the kundalini and things like that. There’s a, there’s a big terminology. the, all the terminology is related to the precedence of the goal of becoming and the technologies that empower that goal of becoming there is no single system of chakras. There is no single description of the psyche.

[00:49:29] audioDebashish32924695289: Each of these descriptions are descriptions by which we can be aided to arrive at what we want to become. What is the yoga that you are interested in?

[00:49:44] audioDebashish32924695289: So the methods also are related in that sense.

[00:49:50] audioDebashish32924695289: Yeah.

[00:49:54] Potential Technolgies via intuition: Larger Finite is not the infinite

[00:49:54] audioKenan42924695289: It seems like from what you’re describing is it’s, is it just the, the field of becoming is, is much wider. It really is, is infinite. And I think earlier in, in part one of our conversation, you had used this word of the big Finit, which is what our culture seems, seems to be doing, but the big fin still, still not the infinite, um, talk, as you were saying that there isn’t like necessarily a single, single map of these descriptions, which is throughout the planet, there are multiple, multiple traditions and, uh, they can, you know, they getting in touch with this being and becoming, they are using, uh, sometimes very different maps that seem to have some parallels.

[00:50:39] audioKenan42924695289: But from what you were saying is it does not mean that they are necessarily equal to each other.

[00:50:45] audioDebashish32924695289: You know, and I think. Uh, that, that this goal of becoming, you know, we were talking last time and you just brought up the notion of larger and larger finites. and we also talked about in doing this because we are using one method, which is the method of tech technology seen as a rational, uh, piecing together we lose sight of the fact that there are other technologies and these are technologies that have completely different modalities of being, you know, that, you may aim rather than a piecing together of the whole, from parts and arriving just at, as at larger and larger finance, you may aim for another technology.

[00:51:37] audioDebashish32924695289: That is a technology of the one, the technology of the intuition of the whole. Right. How do we arrive at a technology for the intuition of the whole? It immediately opens us to a different problem of becoming, and this is I think what the first thing that we need to recognize, even in our self empowerment, as modern subjects, we can choose different, you know, possibilities of becoming,

[00:52:09] audioDebashish32924695289: we don’t need to buy into any one kind of sense of becoming or modality of method of becoming, right. So can we, find a technology for knowing the one, knowing the whole, not, not the parts, not the addition of the parts. So here, when we are talking about even these esoteric technologies of the past, whether as methods or as descriptions of being, we are basically talking about that we are talking about, yes, we can have these various methods that help us to put these parts together, because those are also parts, right?

[00:52:55] audioDebashish32924695289: Talk about seven chakras. Talk about whatever you are describing parts, but you are also saying that along with this alignment of parts and understanding of parks, there is something that exceeds it and puts it all together. That’s, that’s not just the glue of adding them together,

[00:53:18] Subjugatoin of arts in our technological world

[00:53:18] audioDebashish32924695289: and we were talking about poise. We were talking about poetry itself. that is a different kind of knowing, you know, that that’s a subordinated knowing today in the modern world, in the technological world, the arts have only a ornamental place. They kind of hang in corporate offices as some kind of abstract aesthetics of form.

[00:53:43] audioDebashish32924695289: it looks pretty, okay. It comforts me because it pleases its eye candy. But as a matter of fact, what’s happened is that we live in a world in which there’s a big split between the masters of industry, the, corporate technological sort of happy campers and those who are at war with it.

[00:54:12] audioDebashish32924695289: Because they experienced life differently. And this is not just those who are at war with it because they believe in other belief systems, the belief systems of religion, but those who are, who are at war with it because they have a different understanding of what puts it all together. You know? So the arts, the arts, the arts are largely a kind of a political stands, critical towards the word of technology and capital by and large.

[00:54:51] audioDebashish32924695289: And that what has happened is that it has even become cynical because there is no escape absurdism, is a certain kind of a cynical, critical response. To technology and to capital. So this war is, is ongoing, but behind it is this thing that I’m talking about. It’s a different modality of becoming, because if we look again at poesis and at, at, at the arts, there is an intuition of the one which is aimed at there’s a way by which, you know, whether we talk about, I mean, we, I mean, even from a certain point of view, from the viewpoint of science, Einstein was making a very big case for intuition because he was saying that we don’t come.

[00:55:44] audioDebashish32924695289: Even when we are talking about the laws of the world, right. We don’t come to an understanding of the laws of the world by actually, studying everything from an empirical point of view and adding them all together, piecemeal and make kind of, you know, inductive judgements, he was saying, we catch a flash of the truth first, and then we work it out in mathematics,

[00:56:10] audioDebashish32924695289: we see a large hole. And then we, we, see it as a certain kind of a mental feel. We actually have a feel for it. It’s like a flash of light that something in us contacts. And then we work it out, but this happens at different levels. That’s why, when we are talking about chakras, right, we can have it at the emotional level.

[00:56:36] audioDebashish32924695289: We can actually have that. That’s partly what poetry is about. There’s a certain feel for the whole, there’s a sense of the whole.

[00:56:45] audioDebashish32924695289: We have an instinct, which tells us about what’s going on in the world. so these are all different forms of knowing and these different forms of knowing have underneath them and intuition of the one. We may turn these forms of knowing into forms of having that may also, that’s also part of the colonization and the capitalist techn of the, of the world.

[00:57:12] Precognition is the source of Intuition : Philosophy of Kashmir Shaivsim

[00:57:12] audioDebashish32924695289: But if turned into technologies of becoming and into technologies of self exceeding, these are our intuitions of the one that can guide us into experiences of the, one of the whole, because the whole lives in. See, ultimately it comes down to that. These technologies are all paradoxically based in a, for knowledge in a, for knowledge.

[00:57:41] audioDebashish32924695289: That’s why in Kashmir, Shaivism, they’ll talk about four kinds of knowledge and the fourth kind of knowledge or methods of knowledge, technologies of knowledge is anupaya, which means the method of no method. Now, what does that mean? What do you think

[00:58:05] audioKenan42924695289: Uh, you, you just put it in a completely different context, but, uh, what, what I understand is that,

[00:58:12] audioDebashish32924695289: uh, Kenan.

[00:58:12] audioKenan42924695289: In the other three methods that, that, that proceed, uh, APA, there is some level of, of struggle in the individual, because there is, to simplify it, there is a doubt of that intuition of oneness that you speak of.

[00:58:29] audioKenan42924695289: And in the, in the Anupaya, there is, there is nothing to be done because there is, you are already in the, in the unity with that, that one. And so nothing remains, there’s no effort. but it, it’s interesting. I’m, I’m trying to like, frame it in the, in the context that you just presented here.

[00:58:49] audioDebashish32924695289: Yeah. Basically what I’m saying is that there is a little Anup at the very bottom of each of these ups is the Anup. The Anup is the very foundation of all yoga, because we already know, we already know and. You know, it’s like a little wink of the great masters of Kashmir Shaivism that if you know that you already know, then you don’t need any other kind of knowledge, in the earliest to Upanishad on which I’m writing, right.

[00:59:22] audioDebashish32924695289: Brihadaranyaka upanishad again and again, they have that a phrase, it says ya evam veda they’re using the term. I think they’re using it with in a tongue of cheek way, because there’s the whole literature of the, which is all about, you know, it’s VA literally means knowledge,

[00:59:42] audioDebashish32924695289: and your, whether he, he, who knows that, right? So your weather means knowledge because. Canonical and scriptural knowledge, this body of text has to be accepted as knowledge, right. But ya evam veda is, this phrase is being used to say certain deep truths and say saying, he who knows this comes to such and such a realization right now.

[01:00:12] audioDebashish32924695289: He who knows this, that, that, that statement is an anupaya it’s like saying, you know, just know it because you know it.

[01:00:24] audioKenan42924695289: yeah that’s very insightful. And I, I, I think that we’re, we’re connecting back a lot of, a lot of the themes. Would you say that this also connects with earlier, we were talking about Shada or, or trust, and again, not, based on any belief system. And, uh, would you, would you say that in our unfoldment of perhaps of self exceeding, faith deepens because that knowing is somehow deeper and deeper.

[01:00:59] audioDebashish32924695289: Absolutely. I, I think Shutta rests on this knowledge, that already exists and exactly. That’s, you know, I mean, we, we always start and it’s really not about, yeah. I, I kind of, you know, have to have a belief system it’s about, did it resonate with the sense of trip that’s already in me? It resonated, you know, there’s something deep inside me that said, yeah, I already know this.

[01:01:29] audioDebashish32924695289: It didn’t even come up to the surface of my mind, but somewhere in my emotional being, I felt not that I was convinced. This is the whole difference between the social technologies of capture, who capture you by conviction from the outside, by your desires. You’d like to believe that’s why you believe, on the other hand, once you can divest yourself of that, or even outside that there’s something in you that says, yes, this is truth.

[01:02:05] audioDebashish32924695289: And I’d like to take the steps necessary to realize it. I’ve already got an inkling of it. You know, let me take the steps to realize it. And as you take the steps, it grows. Your sense of its reality also grows you start experiencing it. Like they say, at first the guru is outside. Then the guru, the second stage is the guru is inside.

[01:02:32] audioDebashish32924695289: And the third, third stage is the guru is everywhere inside and outside everyone outside.

[01:02:40] audioKenan42924695289: That’s that’s interesting. The way that you described it also seems parallel to Kashmir. Shiism the three levels of realization, where you, there, there is no separation. Ultimately everything is the, the universe. There is not me and the universe.

[01:02:56] audioDebashish32924695289: Yeah.

[01:02:57] Technology as Cosmogenesis

[01:02:57] audioKenan42924695289: so let me ask you, ask you this. Devish It seems like we have expanded how we’re looking at technology from first objective to you brought our attention.

[01:03:06] audioKenan42924695289: That technology is, uh, a subjective process and it’s a, it’s a creative process. And we have to look at our subjective faculties that we already have and explore them. So we’re in contact with that subjectivity. You also use the word, becoming synonymous with Cosmo Genesises. Would you say that the very act of in the wider aspect technology is the process of Cosmo Genesises would you agree with that?

[01:03:36] audioDebashish32924695289: absolutely Kenan. Now this is again, you know, I mean, we, since we’ve taken that term towards, the Indian side of things, the term technology is everywhere. There you see. So for example, in rah, rah literally means technology intra. You used used diagrams that are called Yantra Yantra literally means machine.

[01:04:02] audioDebashish32924695289: See, and then they have the notion of the young three and the young three young three is the driver of the engine, the driver of the machine, which is the goddess. The goddess drives the machine. We are the machine. Of course there’s no duality. We are the goddess as well. See again, in Samkhya, the same thing is happening prakriti the term prakriti literally means a kind of a, you know, tendency towards movement or action kriti towards doing a tendency towards doing a tendency towards doing is a machinic thing.

[01:04:41] audioDebashish32924695289: And automatism, and that’s what sun care is about. It’s about all the various, levels of automatism and the fact that, these are working together in a certain way to give us the phenomenological experience that we have, it’s the machine of who we are, right. It’s a machinic description.

[01:05:03] audioDebashish32924695289: So in fact, I would tend to, again, talking about yoga as a field, none of these need to be taken in an absolute manner as true. They’re all serving a certain goal of becoming they can be reconfigured. They can be put together and that’s what’s happened throughout the Indian history. There, there is different kinds of combinations of all these techniques and all these descriptions that are serving different goals of becoming taught by different teachers, see and followed by different yogis.

[01:05:40] audioDebashish32924695289: So, this technology of being where we are looking at, uh, whatever we call our phenomenological experience as generated in a machinic sense by the mechanism of prakriti and the ability to emerge out of that and become a pure witness, which is Purusa, in Samkhya that that is the goal of becoming how to, how to, be liberated from the co-option by this machining, Right.

[01:06:18] audioDebashish32924695289: but we could take it further and they’ve done like say, so the Gita uses this machine or this, narrative of yoga, Kashmir Shaivism uses this narrative of yoga, Pancharatra Vaishnavism uses this narrative of yoga and they all turn it into something else. Okay. So the part in it that they use is that it’s always useful to be able to liberate oneself from the machinic and that, that technology is absolutely necessary in our times, because that’s exactly what we are talking about.

[01:06:55] Future Technologies as the expression of the intuition of oneness

[01:06:55] audioDebashish32924695289: We are talking about the fact that we are captured. And we need to know that we are captured. We need to be able to see the nooses that capture us. See these nooses are not just nooses of our making they’re nooses of our time. They’re nooses of our society. They’re nooses of technology and capital. So all the capital use of technology in our ability to reverse the use of technology, to make them into subjective technologies of becoming technologies of themselves.

[01:07:34] audioDebashish32924695289: So arriving at that sense of being able to be free, but having come there, we can actually now empower different ways of, technology open up new technologies of experience. The experience of creative life and ethical life, because that’s exactly where we come to. What kind of a world do we want for the future?

[01:08:01] audioDebashish32924695289: We just don’t want to get out of this world. We want to make another world. So what kind of a world do we want? We want to world where we apply this sense of the intuition of the one. We want a world in which we are in at one with the earth. We are at one with other human beings. We are at one with the animals of the world, right?

[01:08:22] audioDebashish32924695289: We are coming from a sense of deep identity and relationality and yoga will tell you that that is possible. That’s possible, but first you have to know this liberation. And secondly, you have to open up these intuitions of. Deep understanding and relationality

[01:08:45] Goal of technology: Well-being vs increasing our intuitive capacities?

[01:08:45] audioKenan42924695289: Yes. Thank you. we were, as you, we were talking about this one, one way that I’ve been looking at technology is when we were talking about motivations, right? So if, if people are, are listening to this podcast and their entrepreneurs and technologists, what is, we’ve already talked about the co-opting of technology as a means of resource management and consumerism, people are now talking about using technology for wellbeing, that the, the ultimate goal is wellbeing.

[01:09:19] audioKenan42924695289: And what I’m hearing from you is, that perhaps you could also look at it as means for the increasing our intuition off the one, if

[01:09:30] audioDebashish32924695289: Absolutely.

[01:09:31] audioKenan42924695289: motivation for creating any kind of technology.

[01:09:34] audioDebashish32924695289: Yeah. Yeah, because technology of wellbeing still begs the question wellbeing for one wellbeing to be more docile animals, cattle of, of capital. Yeah. Oh, wellbeing as a kind of a, you know, door to healing the earth and healing ourselves wellbeing to becoming gods becoming the one, not gods in the sense of, you know, masters of everything around us, you know, utilizers to our advantage, but in becoming, basically various aspects of the one in relation with each other,

[01:10:19] The Risk of over romanticizing ancient civilizations

[01:10:19] audioKenan42924695289: absolutely. it seems that an ancient civilization or, you know, many times. All aspects of even the city building and politics, and stuff was targeted towards architecture itself. As you were saying earlier, that arts is a means for building that intuition and that’s not what’s happening today.

[01:10:37] audioKenan42924695289: It’s become again, that consumerism and, and other things. So it really looks like that all aspects of the way we, we build homes and cities and technologies can be used to increase our intuition optimized for that intuition of oneness.

[01:10:59] audioDebashish32924695289: Absolutely. And not only that, I think it can be the product of that, intuition of oneness, the expression of that, we come back to poesis, the, expressions of the, the, externalization of the cosmos through us. Right. And again, you know, I think when we are talking about the past, we ought not to over romanticize the past, I mean, in making these temples and things like that, it isn’t that everybody was a Yogi.

[01:11:27] audioDebashish32924695289: I mean, many people were actually subjugated. there was a tremendous kind of, you know, power differential at work in these societies. we have to be pretty, UN sentimental about that. I mean, we don’t want to repeat that.

[01:11:44] audioKenan42924695289: think that’s a very, very important to, topic.

[01:11:46] Are the past and future open? Sri Aurobindo

[01:11:46] audioKenan42924695289: And, maybe briefly I can, check with you that I think even in the last conversation we were talking about this openness of the future, which is based on this idea of exegesis, and poises is, perhaps is a synonym of that where we’re looking at the past.

[01:12:02] audioKenan42924695289: In an open way where the past is open and that also opens our future rather than trying to romanticize, certain things or certain traditions and try to put down other traditions and other methodologies. and, it’s interesting as I, I see that happening all the time, even when people are very open, it’s like yoga versus shamanism, or there’s a negative bias towards something else. and it sometimes is gonna be very subtle to, put down one set of technologies in instead of another one.

[01:12:31] audioKenan42924695289: I think you probably spoke, a lot of stuff that comes perhaps from Sri Aurobindo, but I know that we wanted to, wanted to talk about that. maybe you already did. Is there something that you would like to highlight, uh,

[01:12:45] audioDebashish32924695289: Yeah, that’s good. Kenan I think, Sri Aurobindo is a modern Yogi who, actually talked about a lot of this, a new approach towards yoga, what you call the synthesis of yoga is in a sense that kind of relationship with both the past and the future in which the technologies of the self are retrieved by the individual.

[01:13:09] audioDebashish32924695289: and as with everything, you know, I mean, whoever it is from the past, we have a tendency of creating a certain kind of a pedastal and making these people into cults. You see? So that can very easily happen. That’s the reason why I’m talking about ideas and not about people, but certainly if one wants to, engage with these ideas, though, as a person who looks into the future possibilities as against the grain of what we are becoming right now, and I’d say his eventual goal, and he, he has his own terminology, which can also become a, a kind of a lexicon that people keep repeating and making into a cult.

[01:13:57] audioDebashish32924695289: Right. So it’s very important for us to take a step back out of that and understand it in terms. What we need to today in terms of what are the goals of becoming we need to develop for ourselves that will empower, these kinds of possibilities for the future. So, but the thing that, one of the things that he’s talking about with regard to where the exceeding of our mind, you know, where are we headed in terms of an evolution?

[01:14:32] audioDebashish32924695289: This itself is taking the well Springs of evolution in our own hands. This notion of self exceeding it’s like saying that much greater than our ability to tinker with genes from a mental understanding is the fact that much deeper powers of creativity dwell in us that if concentrated and.

[01:14:59] audioDebashish32924695289: Intentioned can actually lead to a opening up of different ways of expression, of even the physical being, and what is a adequate horizon, in yoga does the notion of the bindu. The bindu is always a vanishing point. The bindu in any yantra represents a plane of consciousness. That’s outside the plane of the yantra.

[01:15:31] audioDebashish32924695289: Thera is a projection from that plane. It’s like another dimension. It’s like when we make two dimensional maps of the three dimensional world, we are projecting it onto a lower dimension. And that dimension from which it comes is a bindu, a point you break through it into another plane of ex another dimension of existence.

[01:15:54] audioDebashish32924695289: So what is the bind do if we can talk of the perspectival, perspective, vanishing point of our, modern age, so beautifully, translated into art by, by the Renaissance that brought perspective to us, you know, perspective of vanishing point. What does that bind do at the end of the perspective?

[01:16:18] audioDebashish32924695289: You know, for us, for our times, for him, it’s the meeting point of the one and the infinite. OK. And a good diagram. A description of it is given to us in the Gita, in what is known as the. Vishvarupa darshan. So what is the visual production Ana? Ultimately, he’s listening to this person who is telling him, to go to war, right?

[01:16:43] audioDebashish32924695289: and at the same time he’s giving him this profound teaching of yoga. Right. And at a certain point, AA says, but who are you? What gives you the authority to say all these things? You know? So he says, I give to you, I gift to you the vision that human beings don’t have so that you can see who I am. And he reveals to him this form that has been called the wish for Rupa, the cosmic form, a universal form.

[01:17:17] audioDebashish32924695289: Right. And the description of that is ultimately paradoxical. He sees past, present and future at the same time. He sees all the being who’ve ever existed and will ever exist at the same time. it’s not possible to see this, not because it’s excessive, but because it defies the law of mind,

[01:17:44] audioDebashish32924695289: it defies the law of mind. The mind cannot put these opposites together. It can be either this or that. You know, another description like that is given very early in the Shatapatha Brahmana by, a story about Narayana who is the Sage, a Sage in that case, right? He’s asked, we’re talking about goals of becoming, what is your goal of becoming, what do you want to become?

[01:18:11] audioDebashish32924695289: He says, I want to become all that exists and all that does not exist.

[01:18:18] audioDebashish32924695289: In this one sentence, he encapsulates that ultimate paradoxical goal that can be called the perspective of vanishing point. It is another plane of consciousness, not a plane of consciousness that obliterates and destroys our plane of consciousness. But one from which our plan of consciousness is projected.

[01:18:45] audioDebashish32924695289: A philosophical goal of becoming is of that kind. We can’t experience it, but we can project it as our origin where the one and the infinite are experienced at once.

[01:18:59] Are monism & pluralism , the one & the infinite at odds?

[01:18:59] audioDebashish32924695289: Monoism does not obliterate pluralism, but pluralism doesn’t turn monoism into a chaos that tears it apart.

[01:19:10] audioDebashish32924695289: If they can be experienced at once. It’s a different form of consciousness than what we have, but we can prepare ourselves towards that. And we can have faith sh that we have the power of creativity to experience that by yoga, because ultimately that is the bindu from which we’ve come. So I’d say, you know, I mean to endure complexity in our world, our world is a world of tremendous complexity.

[01:19:43] audioDebashish32924695289: That’s what we are trying to run away from in our right wing pursuit of simplicity. Let’s have one leader and we obey that person. Okay. This is, this is the ultimate. One of the ultimate, you know, contradictions battles of our world today. We are looking for these, you know, simplifications down to the one that will deny radical pluralism.

[01:20:11] audioDebashish32924695289: On the other hand, we have the other side that wants pluralism, but that becomes relativism. In other words, one eating another up. So can the two be experienced at once and not destroy each other? Not because they’re on the same plane, but because it’s a different form of consciousness, this becomes in a way, the project of Sri Aurobindo as a yoga goal of becoming, and we can have faith in it and grow towards it.

[01:20:43] audioDebashish32924695289: If we are called to it.

[01:20:48] audioKenan42924695289: Thank you. I mean, this is, , amazing. I really enjoyed your, compressing and summarizing Sri Aurobindo’s work. it’s quite the paradox to conceive of, as you were speaking, the one. perhaps as the infinite, because the, the very idea of infinite, versus the one at the level of the mind seems like, a paradox, as you were saying, the one can almost seem like, a

[01:21:15] audioDebashish32924695289: Exactly.

[01:21:16] audioKenan42924695289: infinite.

[01:21:17] Poesis and knowledge by identity

[01:21:17] audioDebashish32924695289: Yeah. And, and, you know, all that we’ve talked actually is related to that. You know, when we are talking about poesis as a gathering of the Cosmo in the individual, how much of the Cosmo can be gather? I mean, it’s not a numerical thing. Again, it’s a knowledge by identity. It’s the sense of the. You know, and that’s what is expressed.

[01:21:39] audioDebashish32924695289: I mean, the, the greatness of a great poem is its cosmicity the fact that, you know, the way in which it’s put, put together opens up time and, and space for you, you know? So that kind of coming into contact with the radically absolute one that is also at the same time, the radically plural infinity of being in which each thing is whole.

[01:22:13] audioKenan42924695289: Yeah, one thing, one thing that really touched me in, uh, as, as we were describing, these is our tendency to avoid the tendency to simplify truth in something that this level of consciousness or this point of consciousness will somehow be satisfied with. To me, it seems like the idea is to, or the purpose is actually to make a radical jump to another level, to, to increase the intensity perhaps of the paradox a point that you can, you can jump to the bindu, as you said,

[01:22:45] audioDebashish32924695289: Exactly.

[01:22:46] audioKenan42924695289: and then return.

[01:22:47] audioDebashish32924695289: Even as you’re saying it, it’s exactly how we started by talking about poesis. It’s increasing the intensity of the hole in us so that we jump to another level, another of metamorphosis and, and experience.

[01:23:01] Creativity for new solutions in our times?

[01:23:01] audioKenan42924695289: Yeah. I wanted to ask you one question, which might be very useful for people who develop technology or any kind of creative endeavor for that point. what would you suggest are ways or things people can explore, uh, including myself is to in increase that intensity? Cause I feel like that’s the secret secret sauce.

[01:23:22] audioKenan42924695289: Oftentimes in any creative pursuit is how does one, bring it to that, that level, where that jump happens.

[01:23:29] audioDebashish32924695289: Yeah, I think the first thing is to prepare oneself, to become cosmic. And that implies ultimately firstly, the faith that it’s possible, you know, as we were discussing that, that sense that it’s, it’s already there and secondly, developing deep relations with what is outside yourself, exactly challenging your own borders, you know, uh, can we develop a deep relation with plants, with animals to a point where we really comprehend each other, where there is a exchange of consciousness and even an identity taking place.

[01:24:09] audioDebashish32924695289: And. Can be accompanied by specific technologies, or it can just be the will. It can be anupaya . It starts with a certain kind of a faith, but it is fueled by the emotional will to

[01:24:28] audioKenan42924695289: Yes.

[01:24:28] audioDebashish32924695289: deep relation. So I think in building that, and I think even with, with respect to the crisis that we are experiencing right now to accept that complexity that is around us and to from within it, doesn’t, it’s not an external sort of, sentimentalism, it’s really a kind of internal, opening up of these possibilities, in a way in which one develops deep relationality, and experiences.

[01:25:00] audioDebashish32924695289: Even before it is expressed, it can be expressed simultaneously with its experience, but experiences it, you know, as an extension or, or exactly a kind of a poesis of oneself

[01:25:21] audioKenan63924695289: so thank you so much, David. I really enjoyed it. And I think there are so many gems and really diamonds in, in this conversation that perhaps another time we would, we would explore again. So thank you

[01:25:34] audioDebashish53924695289: Thank thank you. My pleasure. And sure. I I’ll be happy to talk to you again.

[01:25:42] audioDebashish53924695289: .

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